Episode 54- "Understanding and Adapting to Children's Individual Personalities: Guidance from Child Development Expert Amy Webb"

In this episode of the Sweet Slumber podcast, host Meredith Brough and guest Amy Webb, an expert on child development and temperament, delve into the dynamics of caring for children with challenging temperaments. They explore how temperament affects a child's reactions to situations and how it can influence sleep patterns. Amy emphasizes the importance of recognizing and nurturing each child's unique personality and strengths, regardless of societal expectations.

The conversation also touches on the evolution of children's temperaments as they grow, the role of parental intuition, and the need for empathy and adaptability in parenting. Amy offers insights and encouragement to parents navigating the complexities of raising children with diverse temperamental traits.

Topics

• Amy's background, including a PHD in child development & family sciences
• Discussing children's temperaments
• Goodness of fit
• Adapting to a child's temperament as a parent
• Changes in children's temperaments over time
• Recognizing and appreciating the strengths in a child's temperament
• Dealing with clingy behavior in children
• Influence of children's temperaments on sleep patterns
• Creating a supportive and nurturing environment for children's well-being
• Encouraging parents to be patient and take care of themselves
• Providing support and guidance for parents

Check out Amy's blog or reach out and ask any questions on her website!

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Keywords
sleep education, sleep consultant education, child development, temperament, parenting, sleep patterns, children's needs, patience, nurturing, supportive parenting, emotional well-being, research, parent coaching, sleep consulting, sensitive children, societal biases, clinginess, self-regulation, co-regulation, physiology, environment, self-care, Baby-Centered Sleep Consultant Certification Program

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Check out the links below & add your name to our waiting list so you can join our next session.

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Transcript

Meredith Brough (00:00:00) - Welcome to the Sweet Slumber podcast. I'm your host, Meredith Brough. Whether you're a seasoned sleep consultant, a sleep coach, a birth world professional, or a mother aspiring to enter this fulfilling field of sleep expertise, you're in the right place. I'm here to teach you my baby centered solution so you can help exhausted, struggling parents reclaim their sleep and help children thrive along the way. I'll teach you how to find harmony in your life and avoid burnout. Build a thriving business and become a financially independent woman. My goal is to help you fall in love with sleep coaching and never look back. Let's embark on this journey together for dreams or sweet and the work is rewarding. Stay tuned for a show that will transform your business and the lives of those who touch. Hello everyone. Happy to be here today with my friend Amy Webb. We've, recorded a podcast episode in the past, and so I was really excited to have her come back. Hi, Amy. Hi. Good to see you again.

Meredith Brough (00:01:07) - Yeah. Thank you. happy to share her with you guys, because hopefully you've all heard the episode, the interview that we had in the past. And I was just excited to kind of continue talking about temperament. So the title of this class is caring for Children with Challenging Temperaments, which honestly, it's a lot more than that because we're talking about coaching parents. We're talking about understanding these children. We're talking about differences. So let me tell you a little bit about Amy, though she believes the value of child development research is not in telling us what is right or wrong with our parenting, but in helping us to see our children with a new lens. She's a scholar, a research nerd, and a writer, but mostly a wife and mom of two rambunctious boys. Like many of you, she's trying to raise her children into adults who care for others, listen to their inner voice, and use their gifts in a meaningful way to the world. And I totally love that part. she has a doctorate in human development and family sciences.

Meredith Brough (00:02:04) - She's a member of a family of national park geeks. Did you say you go every summer?

Amy Webb (00:02:11) - we try to.

Meredith Brough (00:02:13) - When I first read that, I thought I said every weekend I was like, what?

Amy Webb (00:02:16) - Whoa. That'd be nice, but.

Meredith Brough (00:02:19) - That'd be a lot of traveling. Unless you live in the heart of Idaho. I don't know you. She's an introvert. She believes kindness and empathy can be intentionally fostered in our kids. That's one of the best gifts we can give them. she writes a blog and content for a company, so she's keeping pretty busy. But for many years, she's been a parenting coach. Is that correct?

Amy Webb (00:02:42) - Yeah, I've done all sorts of different things.

Meredith Brough (00:02:45) - Yeah. You're like, wait, there's more.

Amy Webb (00:02:47) - We can tell us more.

Meredith Brough (00:02:49) - But I just want to make sure that we start this out by telling you where to find her. She'll talk about that again later. But thoughtful parent. Com she has a blog. Please subscribe to that. It's wonderful if you want to keep learning from her learning about temperament and parenting and all sorts of amazing, tips.

Meredith Brough (00:03:07) - Then follow Amy's blog, right? So, Amy, where should we start today? let's just talk about temperament. That's sound good. What is it? Sure.

Amy Webb (00:03:22) - How do we. Yeah, we notice.

Meredith Brough (00:03:23) - It, I guess.

Amy Webb (00:03:24) - Right? Yeah. Temperament. I've been interested in temperament for years now, and, the research over the years has kind of changed a little bit. But basically, you know, the summary in a few quick minutes is that children's temperament, of course, varies. It's it's based on kind of like how you're physiologically wired. So some children react, differently to the same situation. So, you know, if you're thinking about, like a toddler going into, you know, like a birthday party or something like that, their temperament will largely impact how they react to that situation. Some children with a very extroverted, exuberant temperament, would approach a situation like that with, excitement. And they would feel in their body, they would feel a certain way, right? They would feel excited or, joyful about this big, exciting party, whereas another child with a, you know, kind of slow to warm up temperament would approach that same situation and their body would react differently.

Amy Webb (00:04:30) - They might feel nervous or cautious or cling to their parents leg. And we've all seen instances of that happening in real life. So on the it's kind of a spectrum, you know, on one end you have the, The outgoing, exuberant, spirited temperament. There's all sorts of labels for it, but those tend to be the children who, just approach everything with gung ho attitude, right? They they are excited. And so that's one temperamental kind of, category. And then on the other side, you have the slow to warm up temperament, more cautious, approach situations with a lot of sort of, they want to more maybe observe more than just jump into the situation. And then you have usually a category, of course there's a whole range, right. You can vary kind of on either end of that. But then there's also a category that's usually described as easygoing or laid back temperament, which is just sort of your kind of middle of the road, temperament that just kind of goes with the flow and doesn't get, you know, overly excited, but not overly cautious either.

Amy Webb (00:05:40) - So we have all those ranges of personalities and children. And I think the interesting thing about temperament is that it's part of what makes kids unique. And so when you see your child's temperament emerging, that is their little personality coming out. And so even when they're infants, I think you can see this a lot of times, where, you know, you see the baby who falls asleep easily, who just is so laid back and easygoing, and then you have another baby who might be very difficult to soothe and has a hard time falling asleep and is very alert. I remember, when my second child, second son, was a baby, we took him for the traditional newborn photos, and it took over an hour of rocking and soothing and nursing and bouncing to get him to sleep soundly enough to get the photos. And the photographer said, I have never seen a newborn so alert in all my life, and she photographs newborns every day. And I was like, okay, it's not just me, it's it is really like so alert he will not go to sleep so that even he was only a week old.

Amy Webb (00:06:48) - So I think even from those early days, you start to see signs of, you know, these temperamental differences. And when it's your first baby, you might not know what's going on. But if you've been around many babies or if you've had more than one baby, you start to see these differences pretty early on.

Meredith Brough (00:07:06) - Yeah, well, I was just thinking about how, sorry that was. Those are great examples you gave, by the way. people will tell me my baby was so active, even carrying them in my tummy, you know, like, this child never stopped. And it was like there was a clown in there doing acrobatics, all sorts of crazy things. And people would notice that from the, you know, they're just like, who is this child? I think that's so you think that they're kids active. But I think there's a big difference in some, you know, like if you're actually thinking, this kid's running a marathon marathon 24 over seven in my stomach, it's probably a little different.

Amy Webb (00:07:46) - Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Meredith Brough (00:07:50) - You can notice it very early. Sometimes.

Amy Webb (00:07:52) - Sometimes that's true.

Meredith Brough (00:07:55) - And I actually had one client tell me that her child had a fear of missing out, which I find is usually a spirited trait because who they want to be in it, they want to be involved. They want to, you know, don't miss anything. But she she saw that with sleep the first week.

Amy Webb (00:08:10) - Oh, yeah.

Meredith Brough (00:08:11) - On the way to the bedroom they were using their nursery. Kid is crying as a newborn. I can't even believe that it kind of marked their awareness. So you know where that this this means I'm missing out. This is insane to me.

Amy Webb (00:08:27) - I don't want to go in the room by myself. Yeah, I'm going to miss her. Exactly.

Meredith Brough (00:08:31) - Yeah. Those are great examples. Thank you. So what is goodness of fit? You brought that up earlier with me.

Amy Webb (00:08:39) - Yeah. So in the temperament research scholars talk about goodness of fit as being sort of how the environment fits with your child's temperament.

Amy Webb (00:08:49) - So if you have a child who's very spirited and exuberant, if they're in a situation just kind of like you were just describing where, oh, now I have to go sleep in my room without any buddy or any stimulation that goodness of fit is. It's not. I mean, not that we I'm not trying to imply that every, every situation has to have a good fit for their temperament, but that mismatch between their temperament and what's going on in their environment is, is how that goodness of fit is described. So probably a better example is, if you have a child who's very active and outgoing and extroverted and they like as a toddler preschool, or go to a school that, you know, really encourages a lot of like seat time and, you know, worksheets and very quiet sort of passive learning. That's not going to be the ideal goodness of fit for their temperament, because it's kind of in conflict for for how they interact with the world. And so, you know, it's just kind of good to keep that in mind.

Amy Webb (00:09:52) - Like I said, we can't make every situation, a good fit for our kids. That's kind of impossible. But if you start to see in how your child's interacting in the world that you know, this situation or that situation is not a good fit for them, sometimes it's just good to know that. So it explains why why they're behaving the way they are. So it's not that they're, you know, disruptive or a bad kid or anything like that. It's just this is not a good fit for them. And so this is why they're acting out or having a difficult time with this situation is because it's not fitting with their temperamental needs. So, you know. Sometimes we can do something about that and sometimes we can't.

Meredith Brough (00:10:35) - Yeah. I was just thinking about. A child that I was working with. You know, I was working with parents, but, who had such a hard time in his daycare. Everything was just awful for the parents. They could not figure out how to help him have a good experience at daycare, to settle in, to be happy.

Meredith Brough (00:10:59) - He wouldn't eat. He wouldn't sleep. And it was a big daycare and he had some changes in who was his teacher. You know, like sometimes there's multiple people, but they had a lot of changes with the people that were there. And I just remember talking to her and thinking, he's very sensitive, child. I feel like it would just be so much better for him if he could have a nanny, if that's at all possible for you, or even a small in-home daycare where he can get more attention and have less overstimulation stimulation period. Where there's so much going on, there's so many kids, there's probably lots of crying and noise. And so I just have this feeling that he would do so much better in a small daycare, and they didn't listen to me for a really long time. I think when he wasn't eating and he wasn't thriving and it was more serious and worrisome, they finally maybe made some changes and and absolutely made such a difference for this little guy to go into in-home daycare where he had the attention, somebody could really make the setting right for him, and it was just so much more conducive.

Meredith Brough (00:12:07) - And and he thrived. He did. It was it was amazing. Like the changes, even just taking that one situation off the plate, literally him eating well, I think a huge thing for a parent. You can't go to work and focus if you know your kid's not eating all day long, like it was super stressful for them. So I love that you you talked about that because it's really common for us to try to fit our kids into a box. Teachers have they do this, doctors do this, administrators do this, parents do this. We're always trying to fit them into a box that they don't belong in. So we can just try to look for the situations that are better for them. When we can tell there's a problem, I think it would serve our kids better.

Amy Webb (00:12:52) - Yeah, yeah. I you know, like I said, we can't always make everything work for them. But I think also what you're describing is understanding that the classic, you know, sort of positive parenting approach, which is, seeing their behavior as communication.

Amy Webb (00:13:10) - So when something like they're not eating or they're not sleeping or they're not thriving is showing up in their behavior that they're trying to communicate something, they just don't have the, you know, the words to express it, but their behavior is trying to communicate something.

Meredith Brough (00:13:26) - Yeah, that's really beautiful. Perfectly said. Do you have any other examples of this type of scenario? I'm asking you off the cuff. So.

Amy Webb (00:13:38) - I think part of it is just also being mindful and accepting. As you learn about who your child is and what their temperament is. like you're saying, not trying to fit them into a box and and just trying. A lot of times I think what comes up is for some parents, is their child's temperament may be very different from their own. And so that that can be a goodness of fit issue as well. Like if you're very outgoing and your child is more introverted and shy or vice versa, or any sort of different combination, that can be an issue where you know you want a parent, the child that you thought you were going to have, or the needs that you have as your temperament.

Amy Webb (00:14:20) - But sometimes they have very different needs. And so sometimes it means adapting our parenting to, you know, their temperamental needs. And so, you know, just in my own life, I know I use examples from my life a lot, but I guess we all do. you know, both of my boys are very outgoing and spirited and exuberant, and I'm more introverted and quiet. And so I'm always sort of like, oh, gosh, I wish they would be quiet. You know, part of me is saying that in my mind, and when they were toddlers, it was like they always wanted to be the one climbing on stuff and going to the playground. And I just kind of wanted to sit at home, but I had to adapt because that was obviously what they needed at that time. And now they're older, you know, we kind of can negotiate what their needs are versus what my needs are. But when they're so tiny and, you know, babies and toddlers, it's it's usually the parent having to adapt to what, what the child needs at that phase of their development.

Amy Webb (00:15:20) - So just trying to be flexible and understand that that won't go on forever. Eventually they'll be able to work with you and be like, okay, I need quiet time for 15 minutes. Then we can go to something else. You know, when they're able to work through that, when they're older. But when they're toddlers and infants, you you do sometimes have to adapt to what their needs are at the time, even if it's a different, you know, than what your own temperamental needs are.

Meredith Brough (00:15:45) - No, I get that. Actually. You reminded me of another scenario which can go either way for me. I talked to parents who want flexibility. They want to be able to go places. They want to have more flexibility with the schedule. They want to be out and about. They want to travel, but some parents want that and can't have it because their child just absolutely doesn't cooperate. It goes terribly. and then there's other parents who have that and it works really well, but I still have a conversation with them because they want to have more kids.

Meredith Brough (00:16:17) - And I'll say to them, you're really blessed. Your child is so flexible. Your child is so adaptable, but that's actually not the norm. So I hope you appreciate it, enjoy it. But just so you know, maybe next time if a child is not going to go that well because kids can get overstimulated, kids can need more time alone, not alone at home. They might need space. Like, leave me alone. Let me let me have some quiet time. Imagine you were a baby. Or do you need more structure in the day to day? And a lot of kids thrive when we have a fairly typical day. Every day it's the same thing, you know, with the schedule, with when they nap. And let's make sure that they are, you know, taking those regular good naps and going to bed at the same time. And then, you know, some kids really don't do well when you travel. So it's just it's just interesting how that can be seriously very different from home to home.

Meredith Brough (00:17:14) - So yeah, I just think it's important to be flexible in those early years when you have a child who just needs something other than what you want your life to look like. And probably the main thing I see with that is bedtime. Like, we want this to be flexible. We want to be able to put our kids to bed at different times, and we want to go places at night. And I just tell them how once or twice a week would be okay. But be real. That might be a really bad night's sleep. And so you just have to at least understand your you're choosing that. Don't complain about it tomorrow. You know.

Amy Webb (00:17:49) - It's I mean it's it's kids do for the most part. Like you said, there's variability, but for the most part thrive on that routine. And so, you know, recognizing that it won't always be like that when they're, you know, older, they they do usually get more flexible in their, you know, ability to sleep different places and all that.

Amy Webb (00:18:09) - But for these few years when they're very young, it is often you're stuck to the nap routine and the bedtime routine. That's just kind of how it is, unfortunately. But once they once they have that and they're in a good place, then, it allows everybody to get more sleep. And then later on when they're elementary school or older, you know, usually they get a little bit more flexible. So it gets changes over time.

Meredith Brough (00:18:36) - And that could be said about a lot of the tough situations that parents deal with, right? That some kids will become more independent by 1 or 2 because of the way you've been super attached to them and given them that security. It's supposed to happen naturally, that they become more independent. It just happens earlier for some kids and later for some. So that's something else I see that happens naturally. Is there anything else along those lines for you, especially with your own experience, where kids just became a little easier over time?

Amy Webb (00:19:06) - Oh so I mean so many things.

Amy Webb (00:19:08) - I think kids become more independent. They and that like you said that varies. But they become more flexible. They're able to I think like handle their emotions better over time as they mature. And so if something goes wrong, if, you know, if you're playing gets delayed when you're traveling or whatever, they're able to handle that so much better as, as older kids, just they're a whole like, you know, emotional skill set is just so different. As they get older. They can just handle conflict better. They can handle sibling interactions better. Just so many things they're able to mature into. You just have to be patient with them and and try to set them up for success with the, the modeling that you're doing. But kids especially with like emotional skills, it takes a long time. I mean, it's a very slow maturation process. Their little brains take a long time, to do that. And so, you know, I have one now that's a teenager. And even now, I would say there are some skills that are definitely in place, but some are still a work in progress.

Amy Webb (00:20:18) - So it's it's not just a smooth path. Right. So I think recognizing that all parts of child development are, are up and down. There's fits and starts. You make progress in one area and then maybe they kind of you feel like they're never going to learn this, but they eventually will. So it's not just a straight line path. I think that's good for parents to remember. It's very bumpy. And just just because you think they learn something, then they kind of unlearn it and have to try again. So just be patient.

Meredith Brough (00:20:48) - That's so true. You're making me think of so many things. And like.

Amy Webb (00:20:53) - You have older kids, you know. You know.

Meredith Brough (00:20:56) - Yeah. No, I think about this all the time. How I used to work so hard on teaching my kids manners. And now I'm just like. I don't know why I bothered because I hear this loud burp and I'm like, what the heck guys? I remember we would sit down in a little circle. It sounds like I'm a perfect mom, but there was spurts when I would do these things.

Meredith Brough (00:21:23) - and we would just talk about manners and we would practice. And it was this adorable little session. She just really understood the importance. And we would practice at our meals. And now I'm just like, oh my gosh, they don't remember anything. I thought. I love the way you said that. So funny. Sorry for totally going off track there, but we can laugh.

Amy Webb (00:21:47) - Oh yeah, we've all been there.

Meredith Brough (00:21:50) - Oh, it's so funny things to to, look forward to for some people. Right. So what do parents need to understand? What do you sleep? I can't talk to sleep consultancy to teach parents. That's what I mean. Like some really useful insights or tips. We've we've talked about a lot, but is there anything else?

Amy Webb (00:22:10) - I mean, I think it's good to keep in mind, in terms of temperament, there's no right or wrong temperament. And so, you know, I think as a culture, we probably are a society we have. Some times some biases about, you know, certain temperaments being more sort of accepted or more, You know, kind of valued in our society, right? We always talk about, you know, we kind of value people who are really outgoing and extroverted and and you see those people as leaders sometimes.

Amy Webb (00:22:43) - But any any temperament has its own strengths. And that's, I think, the thing to look for as children are growing and maturing and is to see what are the strengths that this, that my child's temperament can really be for them, you know, and that takes a little bit of patience and looking carefully at your child's personality. But I think, as I said on the I think I put that on the description on my blog that every, every child has something unique to bring to the world. And so I think as our, you know, our job as parents and a sleep coach or parent coach of any sort I think can help with this is to help parents see what is the strengths that this child has. And so sometimes it can be hard sometimes to see that. And I think being honest with yourself, that if you have a child who is like, you know, extremely sensitive or kind of have it has what would be described, I guess, as sort of a difficult, difficult temperament.

Amy Webb (00:23:42) - Sometimes it's sort of hard to see that at first, but really recognizing that these skills that they bring in, these personality traits can really be a strength for them if we help them, see them and see that in that way. So, you know, a child who is very strong willed and very exuberant. Most of the time. Oftentimes they're you know, they have such like a in a almost like need for justice. And they really want things to be a certain way. And they have very strong opinions about things that can really be a strength for them later in life. That may be the kid who is not, you know, pushed by peer pressure to do something that they don't really want to do, or, you know what I mean? Like, you can always help them see that as as they get older, see those personality traits and temperament as strengths. You just have to kind of reframe it sometimes for yourself first. Yeah.

Meredith Brough (00:24:40) - Well, one of my concerns is. That often parents or sleep consultants will think that all children, all children are like theirs.

Meredith Brough (00:24:50) - So like a sleep consultant may not relate to a parent, they may not have a clue what it's like. They may not have any grasp that sleep is more challenging for them or anything like that, you know? it goes both ways, because parents might talk to a friend and totally not get their situation, you know? So what are some common struggles that you see parents besides the ones you just listed being strong willed, having strong opinions that need for justice? Is there any other really challenging traits or, qualities these kids might have that we should try to understand?

Amy Webb (00:25:26) - I think sometimes if a child is, you know, very sensitive, either emotionally or physically, like actually has, you know, sensory issues, the ones that, you know, everything feels scratchy or the tags always in the clothes bother them. That can pose challenges sometimes for parents and teachers and, you know, everybody who cares for them because you, you know, you try to be as sensitive as you can, but sometimes you feel like, oh, they're just exaggerating.

Amy Webb (00:25:54) - But, you know, if that child, if that is part of their temperament and their sort of their sensory makeup, then. That's who they are. They're not exaggerating, right. That's just that's what they really feel. And so I think trying to empathize that with them that this is really what they're experiencing. and that can go with things like picky eating, you know, all sometimes all of those things go together. Not always, but, you know, kids who are picky eater sometimes or can be really challenging for parents and you oftentimes will blame yourself, you know, as a parent that you think you did something wrong to make them a picky eater. That's not usually the case. So and in terms of temperamental traits, you know, if a if a child is very shy and introverted and slow to warm up, that for some people that poses a challenge or a difficulty, depending on how they view it. If you're really outgoing, that might be more of a challenge for you to understand.

Amy Webb (00:26:53) - new things like.

Meredith Brough (00:26:54) - That. You can relate to the shyness, right? Being an introvert and being more like the one who's just watching and thinking before you are warmed up. so yeah, that must have been really, really tough for you to have these adventurous boys. Did it make you worry more about them when they were diving into things?

Amy Webb (00:27:12) - somewhat. But it was just also, it's just so different. Like, it's hard to relate to when your child is so different from you. You know, you just even today, I still sometimes walk around and I say, I never understand these boys. I don't understand why they do the things they do, but that's okay. I don't have to understand completely. You know, I've, I've learned over the years to just this is this is who they are. And this is this is what they need. This is what they draw energy from, is doing those kinds of things. And so I think it's it's just recognizing that this is their personality and not trying to change them necessarily.

Amy Webb (00:27:48) - I mean, we all want to raise kids who are, you know, kind and considerate and have have the values that we want them to have. But in terms of temperamental variation, you know, it's just a variation. It's not good or bad. It's just different. It's just who they are. So trying to kind of work with that a little bit.

Meredith Brough (00:28:07) - Yeah, I love that. I love what you say about that. But it's just different. No right or wrong. So I think one of the things that I see challenging for people in general, so I'm not just going to pinpoint sleep consultants, but people in general, is when they see a child that's very clingy and some people don't like that works. I think it's mean, but I just mean, like physically attached, holding on to legs, wanting to be held. Maybe they need their parent's affection or attention, like constantly. there can be a lot of judgment from people in general. Like I, I have friends who will come to me and say, oh my gosh, my daughter in law is spoiling her baby drives me crazy, you know? And they're just like, this child will never lay down for naps.

Meredith Brough (00:28:59) - And she holds them forever and she holds them for, you know, whatever. And feeding and rocking them to sleep. And and they just there's a lot of blame. There's a lot of judgment. And I think if you haven't had a child like that, that's easy to do. So can we talk about that a little bit? I mean, this this can be a conversation about sleep too. But really it's just that why are kids that way, you know, do you have any insight about that?

Amy Webb (00:29:24) - I mean, I think some of it is temperament. but I do think one of the things that comes up for me when I think about that topic is learning to grow with your child and change as your child matures. So and, you know, from infancy, even toddlerhood, that kind of behavior is totally when you think about, you know, evolution, that type of behavior is really normal. I think in our society we really value independence, especially in Western culture. Right. And so some of this sort of a cultural thing, if we were in a different culture that valued closeness and interdependence, that wouldn't be seen that way.

Amy Webb (00:30:04) - So there's that piece. We really value independence in Western culture. So a kid who's clingy and very attached is, you know, is kind of viewed sometimes in a negative light. But from a child development attachment perspective, that type of behavior is pretty normal, right? Especially in those early years if you're. And so that I think is where the discussion has to switch is as they get older, if they're still showing that kind of behavior, that's a little bit different because they should gradually be becoming more independent. Now it's very slow for some kids and it's, you know, very dependent on their individual personality. But if you're not, changing as your child is changing, then it seems like it can get into a little bit more problematic. So if they're, you know, six, seven, eight and they're still exhibiting that kind of behavior, that might be a little bit more a sign of like. Parent who is intrusive or, not allowing them to be independent in some way. And so that's a kind of a different issue.

Amy Webb (00:31:09) - But in those early years, which I think is what you're mostly talking about, this, baby, you know, toddler years that that behavior is, it's just adaptive. I mean, that's what they they want to be next to their caregiver. They want to be next to the person that takes care of them and makes them feel secure. and they will eventually start to have those that need for autonomy and it will start to emerge. But sometimes it just takes some kids a little bit longer to to get there.

Meredith Brough (00:31:41) - So I appreciate that. I surely didn't mean to sound like I side with with that opinion, because I don't. I guess I was just like, let's explore this because I agree. I mean, it's hard, especially when it's my friends saying it to me because they think they're confiding something that I would agree with. And I'm like, oh no, no, no.

Amy Webb (00:32:00) - You know, awkward positions I like.

Meredith Brough (00:32:02) - No, please. And then I started to explain the difference in temperament.

Meredith Brough (00:32:06) - You know, one of my friends has several kids, so she feels like she's seen it all. But no, no, even in a classroom, you may not see it. All three kids, you know. Yeah, it's it's really interesting how our perspective, our perceptions come from what we've seen, what's normal to us. And so I really do try to help them understand. No, you haven't seen it all. And this is normal. This is good. And it shows a really strong relationship with one caregiver, which is what we want. So this person turns out to be healthy and have healthy connections for the rest of their lives. Right. And, I really love the just the principle that we we meet their needs, we give them the security, and one day they feel confident or secure enough to, you know, move away a little bit and not quite not be quite so attached, physically. But I also think that it's important to be aware of, like, is the child getting the rest they need? Are they feeling well? Is there something physically that's off, you know, like maybe they're, feeling lots of tension in their body.

Meredith Brough (00:33:15) - They see see a chiropractor, some holistic, whatever, you know, something. So it's a, it's a whole picture thing. It's a, you know, holistic approach is, is best because we can do some things in our power to at least support their nervous system. Right. And then just be patient and loving and gotta block out all that noise because you're the only one responsible for caring or for raising your child, only one who's really invested wholly right. Everybody else just looking in, they're going to move on. They're going to maybe think that. And then five minutes later, totally forget about it, where you're going to be like consumed by it because it's frustrating, upsetting or whatever. Yeah. So yeah, that's that's.

Amy Webb (00:33:57) - A really important point. Is your intuition as a parent is usually the best guide. Yep. And many other situations.

Meredith Brough (00:34:06) - Yeah, I love that. Thank you for bringing up intuition. It's one of my favorite topics. It's there for a reason. help us make good choices, the choices that our kids need us to make.

Meredith Brough (00:34:17) - So let's talk about sleep a little bit. I think the last interview we talked about the spirited side of kids you probably don't remember, but, I do remember bring that up because you have some spirited boys, right? And we I think we talked about some of the challenges you ran into, and we can readdress those. But let's also talk about what's tough about other temperaments, maybe really sensitive. What did you call them? The slow to warm? I don't know. I label them differently than you do, but yeah, there's a bunch.

Amy Webb (00:34:48) - Of different labels, I don't think. Name, description.

Meredith Brough (00:34:52) - Yeah. So let's sleep regarding temperament for a minute.

Amy Webb (00:34:57) - Yeah. So I mean, I guess. There's no, You know, direct line, I guess, between each temperament and how it might influence sleep. I can kind of, you know, hypothesize how it how it might. I, I think when in regards to sleep, the main part of one of the main aspects of temperament that comes into play is, like you were saying, sort of adaptability, sensitivity to outside stimulus stimuli, and sort of their own regulatory abilities.

Amy Webb (00:35:33) - So depending, you know, if a child is more slow to warm up, if they also have, you know, kind of good. Sense of right, you know, being able to regulate their themselves at an early age, then that will probably help their sleep situation because they'll be able to, you know, calm down easier. but it could go either way. It depends on kind of what their, their innate, sensitivities are, I guess. And so I tend to think of a slow to warm up temperament as being a little bit more easier to soothe, especially as, you know, as a baby. But that may not always be the case. I think it probably varies depending on just the child's individual physiological makeup.

Meredith Brough (00:36:20) - Those are one of those types of children that probably a different take on being spirited, that, they get more worked up, more intense, harder to calm down. Maybe that's what I was after, because I see that with some kids too.

Amy Webb (00:36:37) - Right? Yeah, exactly.

Amy Webb (00:36:38) - So if they're if they get overheated it and then have a hard time regulating that back down, that that will definitely impact sleep and their ability to fall asleep. So it's I think it's a it's all about how well their, you know, regulation skills are and. Some kids just seem like they're almost born with the ability to kind of among themselves and soothe easily. And some babies are just not. And they need a lot of help from their caregivers to calm down and soothe their nervous system, like you were saying. Yeah. And that's what we have to do. And it's, challenging and it's exhausting at times. But eventually they will learn how to soothe themselves and to, you know, learn what works for them to calm themselves down. But it takes a lot longer for that type of temperament if they're, you know, easily overstimulated and very alert, it takes a lot longer for them to learn that.

Meredith Brough (00:37:40) - Yeah. Another thing that I see with these kiddos is that they. Actually kind of feel crappy when they're tired.

Meredith Brough (00:37:49) - Does that sound? Oh yeah. When they are tired? Not over tired, just maybe. Maybe a little over tired. But they're very tired. They're ready to sleep now. Parents are still trying to figure out their kids. And the best timing. I see that a lot. When they're tired, they are upset. They don't like how they feel. They get worked up. So I think that's that like 0 to 60 intensity that we can see hard to come back down. And so parents will often do the feeling to sleep when the child starts acting tired. Because this works. And we don't run into the, the crying and the difficulties. So those are the types of kids that I feel parents really struggle to teach the independent sleep skills, or try to get them sleeping well like other babies, and they don't know what's going on and why it's so hard. Does that sound familiar?

Amy Webb (00:38:36) - Yeah, exactly. I think I have so been there, and I think what you're doing is exactly right.

Amy Webb (00:38:43) - You get as a parent, you get almost trained by their behavior because you know what it's like when they get to that point, like you were saying, when it's 0 to 60 and they're going to totally melt down and have, you know, screaming. And it's very overstimulating as a parent. And so you try everything to avoid that because you're just like, I don't want it to get to that point where they're so overtired and overstimulated that they just cannot quit crying. So you just immediately do whatever tool you know works the quickest, right, to get them to calm down. And, you know, it's hard to kind of get out of that habit if that if that tool that you're using may not be the one that you really want to use, whatever it is.

Meredith Brough (00:39:25) - Yeah, that's true.

Amy Webb (00:39:25) - To or to establish a new habit or a new pattern like you're saying. So that it does pose a lot of challenges to establishing good sleep habits sometimes because you know what works and you want to avoid that extreme meltdown crying situation at all costs.

Meredith Brough (00:39:44) - Yeah, I think it's really hard, especially the first year. I'm not going to say newborn. I think it's hard the whole first year for some families when they're dealing with this. It's so I like to focus on the fact that these parents have been intuitive, instinctive and that they're doing what works and it's not bad. It's not a bad crutch, it's not a bad habit. It's it's it's just that you have a different child. You know, your child isn't this other little easygoing kid that just looks around the room and falls asleep. So you can't you can't say, oh, I'm failing. Oh, I created this problem. No, no.

Amy Webb (00:40:23) - Yeah. And then you get any situation you you might want to do something different. Yeah, yeah.

Meredith Brough (00:40:30) - You found a way to piece yourself on the way for your child to have peace. This thing is working. And I think the sleep training world tells a lot of people that they're doing it wrong, or they're creating the crutch or whatever it is, and it's probably other factors.

Meredith Brough (00:40:42) - My child's waking, there's sleep temperaments. You've talked about, like some kids just take longer to sleep. Well, that is absolutely true. And, It's that's I don't know, I just brought that up because that's a really big area that I focus on is how do we change these habits in a in a positive, not enjoyable but peaceful way? It's not unpleasant or doesn't feel wrong because you can't you just can't approach sleep. The same with all kids. So yeah. So anyways, thank you for kind of talking about that scenario, because it's just really important for people to understand these differences and why we need to understand each child as best we can and their needs, and help parents understand it's not their fault or that they didn't create a monster or whatever it is, like, okay, let's just do the dance. Let's learn about our kids, let's meet their needs and block out all the noise and. Find experts to help if you need help, if you need to make changes in. It's difficult, right? So Amy's been specializing in parenting help, and, she's not doing as much of that now.

Meredith Brough (00:41:50) - But she does have these blogs and you probably have quite the backlog of blogs. People can learn a lot. Just go into your website. Right?

Amy Webb (00:41:59) - Yeah. I have, what is what has it been 13 years of oh my gosh. So there's plenty to read on there and I do I do still write new blogs. I just don't do it as much as often as I used to. But if people want, you know, just have a question or, you know, just want a little tidbit of information, I always answer people's emails because I just love talking to parents. And so I'm still around to provide whatever support I can. And, that's where my heart is, is to help parents who especially around temperament because I feel like it's something that isn't talked about enough. So if anybody has questions, check out the website or email me and I'll I'll do my best to respond as quick as I can.

Meredith Brough (00:42:44) - Thank you. Do you have anything else you want to share with us before we go? Any other thoughts on your mind?

Amy Webb (00:42:51) - I mean, I think, so much of what you've talked about, you know, is looking at your child as an individual.

Amy Webb (00:42:58) - I think that's so important. And also, when it comes to sleep, I know people say this all the time, but just recognizing that it's not always going to be this way, it's not always going to be so hard. And. You know, as your child matures and gains more skills and self-regulation and understanding, you know, the importance of sleep and where they can communicate with you, it will get easier. Those first few years can be really challenging. I know, and it's, you know, when you're in the trenches, you feel like it's never going to end. But it does get better. And, the work and the effort that you're putting in when they're babies and toddlers, I feel like really does set the stage for your whole relationship. So just try to hang in there and be as patient as you can and, you know, meet their needs, but also take care of yourself. And if you if you get to a point where the sleep challenges are really affecting your own mental health, then don't be afraid to ask for whatever help you need.

Amy Webb (00:44:06) - There is no shame in that at all. Taking care of your own needs in order to be able to meet the needs of your child.

Meredith Brough (00:44:14) - Yeah, I love that. Thank you. So whether you're a parent or a sleep consultant listening, you get the message of what matters most. And, Amy's actually the author of one of my favorite articles about how difficult children need more from their parents. But parents are really contributing to who their children become. And there's like this huge reward, this huge payoff, because I feel you almost were saying, like, the more you invest in your child, the more rewards you get, and the more you know you see your impact. That sound kind of accurate for what you wrote?

Amy Webb (00:44:51) - Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, what the research shows is that children that have difficult or, you know, I don't want to say difficult, that's not the best label, but, challenging temperaments, they do require more of parents. And I think there was an article written I was in, I don't know, New York Times or something.

Amy Webb (00:45:09) - And it was something like, each child is their own. Is their own, is your own job like each child is. It's it's their own individual case. Right. And so with children who have challenging temperaments, they are they do require more of us as parents, but they also are also more I guess susceptible to parenting. And so that means if you're pouring all this into them and doing the best to meet their needs, then they're more likely to have a good outcome as they mature and and kind of get past that those early months. And that's what the research was showing. And I think that rings true for many of us who have have gone through that phase where it's very challenging and they need a lot from us. But but on the other side of that, there is a huge benefit. And you see that in their development and their, how they respond to the world. And once they get a little bit more regulated, they, they really blossom.

Meredith Brough (00:46:10) - I love that. Thank you for for bringing that up, explaining it more.

Meredith Brough (00:46:14) - because I know you did the research and you spent some time really focusing on the what you found, right? The studies, I and parents love that they eat that up. They love hearing that. Like it's. Oh, it's like this bomb to your soul to know that it's all worth it. So really appreciate that. All right. So, Amy, remind us where we can find you.

Amy Webb (00:46:38) - ThoughtfulParent.com is my website and on there you. There's multiple ways to contact me and if you need individual help or just want to ask a question, I'm happy to reach out and answer the best that I can.

Meredith Brough (00:46:54) - Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, I appreciate your time, appreciate your insight and wisdom and for for making the time to do this, to be with us. Absolutely.

Amy Webb (00:47:05) - Thanks for having me.

Meredith Brough (00:47:06) - Hopefully we'll have you again someday, every couple of years. Right.

Amy Webb (00:47:11) - There you go.

Speaker 3 (00:47:13) - All right, everybody.

Meredith Brough (00:47:14) - Thank you so much for being with us.

Meredith Brough (00:47:16) - We'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Sweet Slumber podcast. We hope you enjoyed today's show. Before you go, please leave a review and hit subscribe and have a great day!